Matthew Schneier
By: DeVonn Francis
Oona Founding Partner DeVonn Francis sat down with his friend Matthew Schneier, chief restaurant critic and features writer for New York Magazine, to chat about the linkages between food and fashion, the theater of restaurants, and the theater itself.
Read their full conversation below.
Source: Matthew Schneier by Cruz Valdez
Who is Matthew Schneier?
DF: Tell me about you.
MS: I'm Matthew Schneier. I am the chief restaurant critic for New York Magazine, as well as a features writer for the magazine. I’m coming up on my one-year anniversary as the chief restaurant critic, and so I get a little bit involved in all of our big food-related projects. I contributed to our giant summer eating guide, which was a big hit. I write regularly for Grub Street, but my main focuses are going out, eating the city, and reviewing restaurants.
How does Matthew perceive the linkages between food and fashion?
DF: I was reading your resume: Conde Nast, Style.com, Paper Magazine. I read a little bit about your It Girl story. I’m wondering what coming from a fashion writing background and then going into food feels like for you. What does that mean for you, and how do they relate to each other?
MS: It's a great question, and it's one that I've thought a lot about and am often asked about. The truth is: I worked in fashion for a long time, but in that industry, too, I followed my nose as a reporter. It wasn’t that I was dying to cover fashion from childhood or anything like that. Every beat I’ve ever had in my life, I’ve approached as a reporter.
I think food, like fashion, is really a way that we describe ourselves to ourselves. And I think through the lens of food and the lens of restaurants, you can really see what the priorities are of the culture at any given moment. It’s a really fascinating way to think about what’s important to us — what we’re celebrating and prioritizing, and maybe also what we’re overlooking and underrating.
Chefs and restaurateurs are taking a necessity — making food — and then embellishing and embroidering it. The same is true of fashion. We could debate whether or not food or fashion is an art form, but it certainly seems at least arguably so to me.
There’s a difference between food and restaurants, and to me, that difference is akin to the difference between clothing and fashion. Restaurants are theaters. Theater is another subject that I've written a lot about, that I’m very passionate about, and I see restaurants as a very natural extension of that.
Restaurants aren’t just about most efficiently fueling the body. They’re about creating space. They're about creating community. They're about creating aesthetics. They're about creating ambiance. All of those things are in service of getting somebody's vision across, somebody's point across, somebody's culture across. And that's exactly the way that I approached fashion shows when I was reviewing them. That's exactly the way that I've approached books when I've reviewed them. It's exactly the way I've approached theater when I write about that. And, it's the way I try to approach all of the restaurant reviews I do.
Obviously, the food is paramount, and the cooking is paramount — where it comes from, and what it says about where we're going. But I also think about how it feels when you're in the space, who else is there, why they're there, what brings people, what draws people, what works, and what doesn't. So that's all a very long-winded way of saying: I think the fashion-to-food pipeline might seem strange to some people, and, at first blush, it even seems strange to me. But, the longer I do this, the more connections I see between the two.
Also, I just have to admit that some of the best training I got for my current job was eating my way through the fashion industry. I was so privileged to spend about a decade traveling to London, Florence, Milan, Paris, and Tokyo, in addition to living in New York. It's not an accident that these are fashion capitals and also some of the greatest cooking and restaurant cities in the world. Apologies to my former employers: There may have been times when I was more engaged with the reservations I was getting at fashion week than a few of the shows I was attending.
“I think food, like fashion, is really a way that we describe ourselves to ourselves. Through the lens of food and restaurants, you can really see what the priorities are of the culture at any given moment.”
DF: My family had a restaurant when I was growing up—I'm from Virginia—but in a lot of ways, as a little gay boy, food and fashion were the ways in which I learned how to impress people. I find a lot of similarities between food and fashion: the ways in which they bring people together , how they’ve always been a means to creatively express or talk about a time or a trend — or to amplify a flavor or a moment. I love what you're saying about food and fashion because I think that how we talk about ourselves and how we see ourselves are very evident in both realms. It's just so much fun, too. The type of problems that you get to solve for as a chef or a designer, particularly concerning the body, are really interesting. And as you said, these are two realms that we involve ourselves in every day.
MS: Absolutely. And to be clear: I feel this way about wine, too. In the last couple years, I've gotten much more interested and invested in wine. And the more I learn about it, the clearer it is to me that winemakers are trying to convey the very real place that they come from — in the literal sense, like terroir and soil and earth and sun — as well as their own style and flourishes in the cellar. I think people start rolling their eyes when I talk about wine because I've gotten a little too into the deep end. To me, it just seems like another totally comparable holistic expression of place and culture and artistry that happens to also get you drunk.
DF: One hundred percent, yes.
Matthew in his habitat: an NYC restaurant.
Source: Matthew Schneier
How has Matthew’s wine education unfolded?
DF: This is a good segue into my other question. I have my expertise in some things, but in so many ways, I love food and I love fashion and culture in New York because I am a novice, and I try to come at my work as a novice because I feel like it allows me to have more fun and to extend curiosity in ways that allow me to see things from different perspectives — especially in the way that you're talking about wine being much like food, an expression of where someone comes from and their point of view, their perspective. The interesting thing is when I signed on to be a Founding Partner of Oona, I was very much so coming at it from the experience of a novice. As much as I want the company to do well, because that's partially the goal, I signed on because I don't know a ton about wine. I did it because I wanted to have an excuse to be put in these circles, to learn from the other Founding Partners, and to ask myself bigger questions about how I want to be spending my time. Ultimately, I want to feel good and I want to enjoy spending my time — wine is often a part of that.
And so, as someone who is tasked with reporting on things that are interesting to you, coming up with a dialogue around something that you hope readers turn their attention to, how would you begin to bring someone into learning about the wine world from your perspective? What feels important to you about it? What doesn't feel important to you about it?
MS: Well, to be totally clear, I am still very early in my learning journey.
I feel very lucky to have been able to start coursework with the Wine and Spirit Education Trust, which is one of the main accrediting boards. It's been really fascinating and really fun but also incredibly humbling just in how little I actually know, and how much there is to know — how specific and granular you can really get. I mean, if you want to feel like a complete idiot, there is no faster way to do that than trying to do a blind tasting and being continents away from where you think you are.
All of that said, I think wine often gets a bad rap for being pretentious or elitist, and certainly it can be all of those things. The people who are passionate about it can be all those things, too. But now that I know a little bit more about wine than I used to, and I feel more conversant in it,
I notice that when I'm dining with friends or family, everybody sort of throws up their hands and says: ‘you handle it.’ And the truth is, in some cases, their palates may be better than mine. I think the most important thing in getting involved with wine is to sweep away the intimidation that you don't know what you're talking about, and to taste it the way that you would taste food.
It can be challenging, and like all things, I think it rewards practice. But you already know what a strawberry smells like, what a cherry smells like, what lemon and lime taste like. You may be less aware of malolactic conversion notes or what oak tastes like, but all of that stuff comes with time. And I think once people give up the idea that you have to either be a complete novice or a master of wine, there's so much to get out of it. I think once you just trust yourself in your own taste, and come at it as a thoughtful tasting person, it all really kind of opens up.
“Once you give up the idea that you have to either be a complete novice or a master of wine, there's so much to get out of it. Once you trust yourself in your own taste, it all opens up.”
How does Matthew approach the language of wine?
DF: Is there a place that you would suggest someone to start in that process? Let's say someone wants to buy a bottle or they want to go have a really good experience for their first time.
MS: I always recommend talking to wine people. They are the ones that love this stuff enough to work in it. If you can't talk to a winemaker, the next best thing is: talk to your bartender, talk to your wine shop, or talk to the person who's administering the wine club. They want to convey their enthusiasm and passion and lead you to the things they really love and think are special. You can also have fun with it.
I have a friend who, when he goes to a restaurant, tells the somm or the waiter or whoever’s serving him: ‘I really want a red wine that tastes like it’s just been on a vigorous hike.’ And I love that. Maybe that means something different to different people, but it is extremely evocative, and I kind of know what that means. I'm not in service, but if I were, I think I would have a sense of, if not exactly what to give him, where to steer toward and where to steer away. And it's just kind of having the balls to try and make yourself understood. If it doesn't work out the first time, okay. Take it back to the drawing board and be like: “okay, what do you got that’s going to work with my spaghetti bolognese or my shrimp scampi or this lobster roll or these Doritos.” There’s a pairing for all of those.
DF: Oh, I love that! Okay, I'm going to try this exercise for myself right now: I want a wine that tastes like it listens to Grace Jones. Where would that put me in the world of wine?
MS: A wine that tastes like it listens to Grace Jones… so, you want something that’s funky. You want something that's soulful. You want something that's a little bit dangerous. It was big in the 80s. Hold on. Hold on. I'm going to get there. I would suggest a Bandol Rouge.
DF: Oh?!
MS: A Mourvèdre-dominant Provençal — a dark, spicy, dangerous red wine from a region that's much better known for big, bulk rosé production. That, to me, is late-night, funky, perfect with a big steak or an oily caponata, red pepper sort of thing. That, to me, is very Grace Jones. Although, I do remember when Grace's memoir came out, everybody was passing around her rider. She calls for a dozen oysters or two dozen oysters unshucked because Grace does her own shucking.
So if we are paying tribute to Grace and her oyster predilection, I would say: you want a nice Chablis. Maybe a little Champagne! A Muscadet could work.
DF: I love that. That would be the other way to go. I remember watching Bloodlight and Bami and being like, why am I walking around the world with so much fear? Obviously, that's a choice that I'm making.
MS: I think if you can rock the Grace Flat Top, I say, go for it.
“You want a wine that tastes like it listens to Grace Jones… so, you want something funky, soulful, a little bit dangerous. It was big in the 80s.
“Hold on, I'm going to get there. I would suggest a Bandol Rouge.”
What’s Matthew’s relationship to theater?
DF: Totally! And speaking of movies, I wanted to talk about theater: when you say theater, do you mean stage acting, or do you mean on camera?
MS: I'm a native New Yorker, and so I grew up, luckily, going to a lot of theater. I love stage theater in particular. I mean, we also love movies. We watch a lot. My boyfriend is a big cinephile, so there's a whole lot of film happening.
DF: Oh, I need that list.
MS: I have a bad habit of falling asleep, so his Letterboxd is a better guide than mine. But, yeah, we try to see a lot of theater. I'm lucky that I covered theater in the past, sort of around the edges of my other stuff, and so we still occasionally get press tickets. There's often great stuff up in New York. New York is a great theater town the way it's a great restaurant town. If only there were a couple more good restaurants in the theater district, everything would be really perfect.
DF: I know, what's up? Can we talk about why that is?
MS: I think it's just expensive. I think rents up there are hard, and I think it's, I assume — I don't work in restaurants — but, I assume it's hard to make money if people can't stay for a long, wine-y dinner. If they're trying to get in and out before a curtain or before a last call after one, etc.
DF: I just want to talk about it because I'm always gagged by it. It's really hard.
MS: I think most chefs and most restaurateurs would also like their food to be cheaper. I think very few people go out and say: ‘I want to have an exclusive or an exclusionary experience’ or something like that. It's a thin-margin industry. I mean, like all stories in New York, it's a real estate story, it's a labor story, it's an ingredient story, it's a time story if you are working on sauces that take 24 or 48 hours to prepare because you're starting with demi-glace.
It's the same with wine. The wines that you have to age longer and that you can't sell immediately are the more expensive wines because you're essentially paying for their room and board while they develop into the incredible final products that they are. As a diner — and I am a diner, maybe a super diner — there's real sticker shock.
Speaking of: I paid $14 for the smallest dessert I've ever seen in my life last night.
DF: What was it?
MS: It may get mentioned in an upcoming review. That's hard to swallow figuratively and occasionally — literally.
How does Matthew approach food reporting?
DF: After listening to you on This Is Taste, on my car ride up to Mendocino, I had a question about your reporting. You made this distinction between the programmatics of what it takes to run a restaurant versus writing about the senses, sensibilities, and taste that come with talking about restaurant food. I was wondering if you personally had a preference as to which direction you go when you write a story?
MS: I think you have to try to blend both (if that doesn't sound like too defensive a response). I always want to make it very clear that I don't have restaurant experience in terms of working at restaurants. I don't own a restaurant. I don't run a restaurant. I'm not a server or a manager or a bar back or any of those things. And so I come at the assignment very much as a reporter does.
I think that's valuable. I think our readers, who are my ultimate bosses and the people I'm here to serve, are also not consumers of trade publications. I'm not writing for a restaurant audience.
That said, I think if I didn't have any sense of how restaurants work on logistical and administrative and organizational levels, I would be falling down the job as a reporter.
I don't think it serves anybody well to not notice that these are complicated, multivalent businesses that also need to make payroll. When they open, they're not just in it for vibes or tastes.
I try to be forthright with readers about what I know and what I don’t know. So far I think that's kind of kept me in good stead, but the real judge are the readers who hopefully are coming to trust — if not necessarily trust my opinion in terms of agreeing with every single review — at least trust the way in which I approach things, and should and do feel very free to agree with me or just go with me as they visit the same place and develop their own opinions.
Matthew’s New York cover story (February 27–March 12, 2023): “an examination of the rise of Ozempic, a diabetes-management turned off-label weight-loss drug that has eradicated the appetite of high society. Schneier spoke with an actress who reluctantly admits using it despite its potential risks, a cosmetic dermatologist who profits from its effects, a restaurant worker now accustomed to witnessing two-bite meals, and others to explore the suddenly cresting Ozempic moment.”
Source: New York Magazine
Matthew’s picks: the theater
DF: I wish we had time for the 20 other questions that just generated, but we don't. So I'm going to go back to the theater for a second and actually just ask for a recommendation: what should I see as soon as I get back to New York?
MS: Wow. Wow. I'm trying to think. Some of the stuff that we've seen recently has closed, We enjoyed Appropriate a lot, the Branden Jacobs-Jenkins play that just won the Tony. Oh, but the only answer is: Oh, Mary!
DF: I knew you were going to say it. I knew it!
MS: I know. It's hard to recommend because everybody already agrees that it's brilliant and they have to see it, so it takes no great genius on my part. But I truly think Cole is a generational talent. I followed their career from the days of Jeffrey & Cole Casserole, their low-budget show on Logo. And I once saw them perform in a venue where the air conditioning barely worked and the seats seemed like they were borrowed from a catering hall. It truly makes my heart so gladdened and proud to see that they have kept doing their thing and taken it literally to Broadway. It's the thing that makes you believe that there's still good things possible in the world.
DF: Now it's on my list, and I appreciate you for reaffirming that I need to see it.
MS: I just think it's terrific.
Matthew’s picks: wine
DF: What are you buying and bringing home to drink?
MS: What am I buying and bringing home to drink too much, is the question. At the moment, we're drinking a lot of Sicilian wine, a lot from Etna. It's very popular now, and for good reason. This is not a secret discovery of mine, but I think both the reds and whites from the incredible volcanic terroir are at once complex and easy to drink. They're not these massive tannic beasts that require a giant slab of steak or something. They don't necessarily require years and years of bottle aging; you don't have to cellar them forever. There are such unbelievable producers working all over Sicily, often working organically or biodynamically, and there's a real wealth of this wine in the wine shops in New York that I go to.
I just had another delicious bottle out last night at a restaurant — Federico Curtaz Etna Rosso. I loved it and now am desperately hunting for it to bring home.
